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 Post subject: Task 4.3.3 Clarification
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:33 am 
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Random wrote:
Danny, we have a question on one part of the scoring....if you are able to pick up depleted pellets or rods and have them on the 'bot, that counts alot of points, but if the machine is in the disposal area, does that count as points as well? or can the disposal points only count if the depleted rods or pellets are actually in the square area touching the mat?


I had to clarify this in the rules, the change came in during the final draft (Draft Version 4) and is reflected in the final rules. In order to get points for the rods or pellets in the Waste Disposal Area, they must be TOUCHING the mat in the area. In order to get points for the rods/pellets in your robot, they must be touching the robot but they cannot be touching the mat. So there is a separation defined there in the rules.

-Danny


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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Along with clarification on 4.3.3....my kids and I are in disagreement as to what "off the mat" entails...
The students are using clear laminate to slide under the chips and are calling that "off the mat"....
if the chips are on the clear laminate sheet and the sheet is touching the playing field is that considered "off the mat" or not "off the mat"...they would really like to know to prove me wrong...thanks Cowdrey


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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:18 pm 
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ccowdrey wrote:
my kids and I are in disagreement as to what "off the mat" entails...they would really like to know to prove me wrong.


From your description of things, and knowing kids don't usually look into things as deeply as adults, I believe I'm happy to inform your kids that they're right.

So long as the checkers are not making PHYSICAL contact (meaning molecules of the checkers are not directly physically resting on molecules of the mat) then the checkers are considered OFF THE MAT. If I applied the associate rule as you have, then checkers inside the robot would not count - the checkers would be touching the robot which would be touching the mat; we all know that is silly, and is not correct.

Too bad they didn't bet you an Ice Cream Party that they were right... :P

-Danny


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:50 pm 
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understandable! But what about field penalty

4.3.8 # of depleted rods NOT in waste disposal
&
# of depleted pellets NOT in waste disposal

To receive points for 4.3.3 you stated that the depleted rods and pellets must be TOUCHING this area. So if only half of a rod or pellet is TOUCHING this area then you will be assessed penalty 4.3.8 for NOT being in that area. Should the penalty reflect the action in which you are given credit for? If you are awarded points for TOUCHING this area, shouldn't the penalty be for NOT TOUCHING that same area? Any explanation would be great. Just trying to clear everything up before the state contest.

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Anthony Barrera
Crowell Robotics


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:47 pm 
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abarrera wrote:
understandable! But what about field penalty

4.3.8 # of depleted rods NOT in waste disposal
&
# of depleted pellets NOT in waste disposal

To receive points for 4.3.3 you stated that the depleted rods and pellets must be TOUCHING this area. So if only half of a rod or pellet is TOUCHING this area then you will be assessed penalty 4.3.8 for NOT being in that area. Should the penalty reflect the action in which you are given credit for? If you are awarded points for TOUCHING this area, shouldn't the penalty be for NOT TOUCHING that same area? Any explanation would be great. Just trying to clear everything up before the state contest.


I had to read that (and the rules) no less than 3 times before I got what you're saying. Yes, had the rules been written perfectly (and had someone caught this before NOW) the penalty section would read TOUCHING instead of IN for the depleted Rods/Pellets in the Waste Disposal. The penalty section DID match the credit section word-for-word, until the credit section was changed but the penalty section was not duly modified. 916 teams in TCEA this year, and you're the first to mention it on this forum - congrats!

I'm not changing the rules, that ship sailed a long time ago. Teams are just going to get that much of a benefit this year; if they're floating above the waste disposal area or on top of another checker of an opposing color in the area - but not touching the area - they will receive neither a credit (they wouldn't have gotten credit anyway) nor will they receive a penalty.

Good catch. Let me know if this happens to you.

-Danny


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:29 am 
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Thanks for kudos!! This did happen over the weekend at our area competition. I specifically asked the judges about it along with several questions to try to sway the points in favor of my students, no success. However, once the judges and I both argued our points the logic of them not matching makes some sense.

Basically you are awarded +25 for simply touching the waste disposal area, conversely you are only -10 if the depleted rod/pellets are not completely in the waste disposal area.

Sounds fair enough because you are not being deducted the full amount, only a portion for not completely placing them INSIDE the waste disposal area. I wish I would have caught it earlier! I believe it was mentioned earlier..."if the rod/pellet is breaking the plane of the waste disposal area, it is considered to be touching/inside the area. This is much like the goal line of a football field.

Impressive number of teams competing this year!

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Anthony Barrera
Crowell Robotics


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:13 am 
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abarrera wrote:
Basically you are awarded +25 for simply touching the waste disposal area, conversely you are only -10 if the depleted rod/pellets are not completely in the waste disposal area ... "if the rod/pellet is breaking the plane of the waste disposal area, it is considered to be touching/inside the area. This is much like the goal line of a football field."


Yeah, I wish you had seen that too. In no place in the 4.3.8 rules does it specify the word "Completely" - if you're touching, you must be IN, and if you're IN, you should not receive penalties for NOT being IN. Unfortunately this was a case of poor training on the part of the referee, but I take responsibility for possibly making the game too "complex" for the infrastructure we have in place (which is very little, in most areas TCEA Robotics is still being "established").

This is unfortunately growing pains.

-Danny


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:23 am 
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I am glad you pointed that out. This was my argument from the very beginning. But to my disdain, teams were penalized if the rods/pellets were not completely IN the waste disposal area. Some of my teams rods/pellets were TOUCHING the waste disposal (half in-half out; breaking the plane) but were penalized for not being IN the waste disposal.

I questioned this and the reply that I received from the judges was that the word IN and TOUCHING are two different terms. When in fact, with regards to the game, they are akin to the same thing. TOUCHING = IN

Other sponsors may see it a different way, but from what I get from the rules is that the penalties should reflect the tasks that are being performed. For example, if you receive credit for completing task A you should be penalized for NOT completing task A.

The game is not too complex, in my opinion I think that this year is easier compared to last year. Any event like this has "growing pains" and issues will always come up concerning rules and/or scoring. As long as there is some consistency from area to area to state is all that really matters.

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Anthony Barrera
Crowell Robotics


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:30 pm 
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abarrera wrote:
I questioned this and the reply that I received from the judges was that the word IN and TOUCHING are two different terms. When in fact, with regards to the game, they are akin to the same thing. TOUCHING = IN


True, but the obverse is not correct. You can be "IN" without "TOUCHING." But that's probably being overly pedantic at this point. The issue at heart is that I did not use the word COMPLETELY, and I will endeavor to make the rule(s) more "painfully obvious" next year to prevent this kind of confusion.

abarrera wrote:
Other sponsors may see it a different way, but from what I get from the rules is that the penalties should reflect the tasks that are being performed. For example, if you receive credit for completing task A you should be penalized for NOT completing task A.


Agreed.

abarrera wrote:
As long as there is some consistency from area to area to state is all that really matters.


Yes, and we will endeavor to increase that consistency.

-Danny


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
The issue at heart is that I did not use the word COMPLETELY, and I will endeavor to make the rule(s) more "painfully obvious" next year to prevent this kind of confusion.

The word COMPLETELY is what I was told by the judges when I questioned the penalties. I am 100% on your side when it comes to the understanding of said rule. I think that each judge from each area will have his/her own interpretation of each rule and score accordingly.

We appreciate your hard work that you do year in and year out with the competition.

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Anthony Barrera
Crowell Robotics


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